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here's a follow-up to one of jorn's earlier posts about the pledge of allegiance. my friend lauren forwarded me the message that he quotes, so if you want to read it, there's the link. here's the email conversation that she and i had about it.
rox wrote:
about the god in the classroom/pledge issue:
if you'd like to engage in some intelligent debate with me on this subject, please do, but if not, then please don't forward me these sorts of emails anymore. this is a subject i feel rather strongly about, and i actually have something to say about it, but it might be better for everybody if we treated it like the abortion issue and just agreed to disagree. however, if you'd like to hear my perspective, just let me know. i hope there's no hard feelings.
lauren wrote:
I am not looking to start a fight. I just thought the forward made a rather interesting statement. As far as the pledge goes, I do understand the thought process behind the decision. I don't agree with it, but I do understand it. I am not looking to offend to upset you. But I wouldn't mind hearing what you think. I think that as friends we should be able to discuss anything without feeling we have to censure ourselves. I respect you and your ideas and thoughts. I just don't always agree. Last time I checked, we didn't have to.
rox wrote back:
don't worry, you certainly didn't offend me or anything, and it was definitely an interesting forward. i thought that the speaker made a few interesting points, but i lost complete confidence in him when he called earth day a day used to worship religiously and praise the goddess. that was seriously the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard--i have never in my life heard earth day pitched in a manner that would make it look like a pagan holiday.
beyond that, though, on the issue of the pledge, i think that in a country that was started so people could have religious freedom, to worship who and however they wanted, i just don't think it's right to impose a christian god on people. yes, lots of people do accept a christian god, but there's also lots of buddhists and hindus and muslims who think of their god(s) in a different way. they deserve to teach their kids their beliefs without the kids getting confused when they go to school. not to mention the people who choose for whatever reason not to raise their kids in a faith, and the kids who don't quite buy the faith they're being raised in.
i heard one political commentator deploring the lack of morality that caused this decision, and i thought that was very foolish because it doesn't go against morality to say or not say those particular words--morality is different from spirituality. all of the atheists and agnostics i know try to live morally, even if they don't choose to live spiritually. and i know lots of people who strongly believe in god who don't exactly follow a strict moral code. one doesn't necessarily follow the other. plus, there's just as much a code of ethics in other faiths like buddhism and hinduism as there is in catholicism, and a lot of it is pretty similar, but that doesn't mean those people should have to say "under god" when it's not something they believe.
and quite honestly, i was hoping you'd write back so we could have a conversation about this--i've been dying to talk about it. i hope you haven't been offended at all by anything i've said. i know sometimes we just disagree, and that's fine by me--nobody can agree about everything all the time, especially not when you and i have such strong opinions about certain things. that's one of the things i admire about you, you know--you always stick to what you believe, even when people aren't on your side. and i'm interested in hearing what you think about this issue, too, even though i don't think i'll agree with all of it. :)
so my friend isn't a republican jerk. she's a very sweet thoughtful person who just happens to be very attached to her particular entree on the religious buffet table.
rox wrote:
about the god in the classroom/pledge issue:
if you'd like to engage in some intelligent debate with me on this subject, please do, but if not, then please don't forward me these sorts of emails anymore. this is a subject i feel rather strongly about, and i actually have something to say about it, but it might be better for everybody if we treated it like the abortion issue and just agreed to disagree. however, if you'd like to hear my perspective, just let me know. i hope there's no hard feelings.
lauren wrote:
I am not looking to start a fight. I just thought the forward made a rather interesting statement. As far as the pledge goes, I do understand the thought process behind the decision. I don't agree with it, but I do understand it. I am not looking to offend to upset you. But I wouldn't mind hearing what you think. I think that as friends we should be able to discuss anything without feeling we have to censure ourselves. I respect you and your ideas and thoughts. I just don't always agree. Last time I checked, we didn't have to.
rox wrote back:
don't worry, you certainly didn't offend me or anything, and it was definitely an interesting forward. i thought that the speaker made a few interesting points, but i lost complete confidence in him when he called earth day a day used to worship religiously and praise the goddess. that was seriously the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard--i have never in my life heard earth day pitched in a manner that would make it look like a pagan holiday.
beyond that, though, on the issue of the pledge, i think that in a country that was started so people could have religious freedom, to worship who and however they wanted, i just don't think it's right to impose a christian god on people. yes, lots of people do accept a christian god, but there's also lots of buddhists and hindus and muslims who think of their god(s) in a different way. they deserve to teach their kids their beliefs without the kids getting confused when they go to school. not to mention the people who choose for whatever reason not to raise their kids in a faith, and the kids who don't quite buy the faith they're being raised in.
i heard one political commentator deploring the lack of morality that caused this decision, and i thought that was very foolish because it doesn't go against morality to say or not say those particular words--morality is different from spirituality. all of the atheists and agnostics i know try to live morally, even if they don't choose to live spiritually. and i know lots of people who strongly believe in god who don't exactly follow a strict moral code. one doesn't necessarily follow the other. plus, there's just as much a code of ethics in other faiths like buddhism and hinduism as there is in catholicism, and a lot of it is pretty similar, but that doesn't mean those people should have to say "under god" when it's not something they believe.
and quite honestly, i was hoping you'd write back so we could have a conversation about this--i've been dying to talk about it. i hope you haven't been offended at all by anything i've said. i know sometimes we just disagree, and that's fine by me--nobody can agree about everything all the time, especially not when you and i have such strong opinions about certain things. that's one of the things i admire about you, you know--you always stick to what you believe, even when people aren't on your side. and i'm interested in hearing what you think about this issue, too, even though i don't think i'll agree with all of it. :)
so my friend isn't a republican jerk. she's a very sweet thoughtful person who just happens to be very attached to her particular entree on the religious buffet table.
